走出精神病院 | Beyond The Mental Hospital
孙京涛、刘铮与袁冬平的对话
孙：摄影对精神病的关注由来已久，像玛丽•爱尼 •马克和雷蒙德 •德巴东等世界者名摄影家都拍摄过这类题材，用他们的照片表达他们对精神病这个世界性难题的看法。那么，你又是抱者什么样的动机去拍摄精神病人的？
袁：拍摄精神病院这个专题是很偶然的。1989年，我的同学节我去精神病院看病人和医护人员的演出，这样我第一次走进了精神病院。在和病人的接融中，我发现他们特别需要人们的理解，而那时我还不知道国外有人拍摄过这类题材。我想，我应这把他们的生活状况记录下来，帮助他们得到人们的理解和关怀。
孙：你一直抱这样的目的去拍精神病人吗？
袁：开始是这样的。后来我又去了其他的医院，精神病人那种毫无掩饰的自然表露，给了我很大的震动。我意识到，单纯去记录他们的生活状况已是远远不够了，而应该更多地从人性的角度去关注他们。这样，我的拍摄也就有了一种超越。
刘：你去精神病院是不是有一种要受刺激的欲里？或者况在没看到刺激场面的时侯，会感到有些失望？
袁：开始是这样。不过很快我就发现白己挺没劲的。摄影中有些东西是很可怕的，比如你刚才说到的那些东西，其实就是把摄影看成是获取名利的工具。那些病人，他们的心灵是最真诚、最赤裸的。我与他们交往越多，这种感觉就越强烈。他们是人，可是多数人都忽视了这-点。
孙：这些年你为什么总在拍他们？
袁：因为我总觉得拍得还不够好。但我也不是总在拍他们。精神病院对于我来况就像是一个你會经爱过的女孩，平时你不会老记着她，可一旦有什么东西触动了，就一下子会想起來。在后两年的时间里，我的照片主要就是在这种心态 下拍摄的.
孙：那张大学生的照片，几乎看不出精神病人的特征，她看上去那么可爱。你为什么要拍她？
袁：她确实有病，而且是精神分裂症。医生说。得了这种病就等于被判了死刑，她极有可能要在医院中了其终生。我给她拍照时，她的头发本来是扎在脑后的，她问我说：“我能把头发散开吗？那样好看些。”听了这活，我难过极了.摄影对于形更及瞬间的选择实际上代表着一种观点。我拍他们时，注意得更多的可能是人性的一面，而不是病态的一面。精神病人 与我们之间，井没有一条明显的界线，只是他们遭受的苦难更多一些。
刘：在这些人的苦难中，你想没想过你自己？想没想过有一天你也坐在那里会是什么样子？
袁：那时我老幻想，假如有一天我能出一本精神病院的摄影集，我就在扉页上写上这样一句活：“也许他们的今天就是我们的明天。”后来发现，这句话已被马克说过了
刘：你在拍摄中想没想过会是对病人的侵犯？
袁：想过。但这件事也许是个悖论。按说我应该很难照到这样的照片，因为病人在发病期间失去了自我保护能力，这就需要医护人员对他们特别加以保护。美国的马克和法国的德巴东在拍摄精神病院时，都是得到政府特许的。在我们国家，精神病院的护士可能是我见过的最好的护士，他们甚至要给病人点烟和剪脚指甲。但我感觉他们对病人的照顾，更多是出于责任，而精神病人最需要的却是一种尊重。这种对人缺少尊重的观念，恰恰是我们每一个人都心须面对的问题。
刘：看你的照片，那些人总直直地面对我们，我想向一句，你在拍他们时，有没有导演的因素？
袁：我不喜欢导演。我承认导演确实能出一些好片子，但总感觉有一种不要重的成分在里面。首先是对被摄者的不要重，也是对读者的欺骗，同样的不尊重，
刘：如果我要导演的活，我就让人们很容易在照片中看出来，而不是去制造一种假象
孙：那么，从视觉的角度来说，你的照片是不是显得太平淡了，缺乏视觉冲击力？
袁：在精神病院里，你要想抽些怪异的东西很容易，不过我比较排斥怪异的东西。我总认为，冲击力和深刻性是两码事。我更希望用形象本身的力量来打动人。如果一张照片第一眼看上去不错，却再也不想看第二眼，就很难说是张好照片
孙：你的意思是说，如果形象本身缺乏内酒，摄影的任何形式都是没有意义的？
袁：或者应该说，形式与内涵相比，内涵更重要一些。你比如说有些特别强调 “决定性瞬间”的照片，形式上非常完美，但因为缺少内涵，看久了就乏味了
孙：可是如果这样的活，作为一个摄影家的个性又通过什么来体现呢？
袁：这我没好好想过。不过我倒相信发自根本的个性，而不是刻意营造的个性。刻意的东西难有长久的生命力。其实个性就像人的性招一样，不见得好，也不见得坏，关键还是看个性中所表达的内容。比如况我更多的让被摄者看我的镜头，就因为我更重视照片中的交流一我与被摄者的交流一一他直面着我，通过照片又直面着你们，照片成了大家交流的桥染。我觉得这样的东西更直率，更能表达我当时的感受。
刘：这么说，思想或者说内容才是你照片中最重要的东西？
袁：应这说是这样。
孙：那么，你思想的出发点、或者思想的归宿是什么？
袁：是一种关怀？或者说，是对包括我在内的人的命运的关注？这似乎是一个不容易回答的回题
刘：看你的东西，我总试图忘掉“精神病”三个字，可却怎么也摆脫不了悲剧的阴影
孙：在我们中国，由于受到东方传统审美美观念的影响，人们并不太接受悲剧性的东西，这自然会妨碍摄影者进入这样的题材。
袁: 一个摄影家选择什么样的题材，与他的性格、经历、人生态度有很大关系。有些人类共同的情感和苦难特别能让我感动，这自然会成为我关注的焦点。
孙：你在拍完精神病院之后又在拍穷人，你是不是觉得只有这样的题材才能表达你对摄影的理解？
袁：我一直认为艺术是要关注社会的，尤其是摄影这种记录性很强的艺术形式。而这种对社会的关注，更多的血该体现在它的批判性上。我拍精神病院和穷人，实际上都包含有这种批利性在里面。这与其说是我对摄影的理解，倒不如说是我对社会的理解。
孙：我总认为我们搞的这类摄影（指纪实摄影），其本身不是目的，而是引发社会效应的手段。你刚才谈到了摄影关怀的品格，你相信你的照片 有足够的力量唤起人们的良知吗？
袁：仅仅是希望而已。我觉得摄影似乎设有那么大的力量。因为摄影的力量更多的决定于社会发展的水平，摄影的某些目的更多得靠社会来实现。
孙：拍完精神病院后对你拍穷人有什么影响？
袁：至少在精神病院的拍摄中我对摄影有了更进一步的理解，也让我思考了摄影、摄影 者和被摄者之间的关系这个问题我还要继续思考下去一一这使我能够站在一个更高的起点上去拍摄穷人。
A Conversation Among Sun Jingtao, Liu Zheng and Yuan Dongping
Sun (Lensman of the Dazhong Daily)：Long long ago, some photographers
began to concern themselves with mental patients. Mary Ellen Mark
and Raymond Depardon, known throughout the world, for instance,
took pictures of them to express their view on thisdifficult problem
mankind has confronted. Can you tell us whatmade you direct your
camera at them
Yuan: I ran into a mental hospital in 1989 entirely by chance. An old classmate of mine took me along with him to watch performance by the in
mates and staff there. That was my firstvisit ever to an asylum. In my
contacts with the patients, I foundthem eager to be understood by the
people outside. I did not knowthen that foreigners had photographed
them before. I was onlythinking that I should record their life with my
camera and helpthem win the understanding and care that should be
their due.
Sun: So, this has been your intention all along?
Yuan: Yes, at the very beginnina. Later, I went to severalother asylums. I was dumbfounded to see the natural, undisguisedbehavior of the in-mates. I realized it's far from enough to justshow their life; they should be given a humanist care. With thisin mind, I effected a leap in my photographing.
Liu (Lensman of the Workers" Daily): Did you wish to beincited when you went to the asylums? Or, let's put it another way, were you disappointed when you failed to see anything exciting?
Yuan: Yes, at first. But soon I came to see what an insufferablecharacter I was to harbor such an idea. We photographers are oftenconfronted with horrible things. The wish you talk about is in facto use picture taking as a means to achieve personal fame and gain. These invalids have a most earnest, vulnerable heart. This awarenessgrew as my contact with them increased. They are human beings aswell, but most people ignore this.
Sun: You have been taking their pictures all these years. Why?
Yuan: Because I feel my pictures are not good enough. But have not been doing so all the time.
Sun : That photo of the undergraduate! She is so lovely, not like a mental patient at all. Why did you take her photo?
Yuan: She is indeed ill -- a schizophrenic she is. Doctors say one inflicted with this disease is as good as having received a death sentence, and she will probably end her life in the asylum. When I was about to take her photo, she pointed to her hair held together at the back, asking, "Can I let loose my hair. I look better..." I felt a great pain in my heart when I heard this. The choice of the object and the moment for photographing represents, in fact, a view. I pay more attention to the aspect of human nature than themorbid state of the patients in taking their pictures. Another consideration of mine is that macro comparison might be the more penetrating one among all comparisons. The hear-shaking strength of tragedies lies in the beautiful things they contain. And thesethings are what everyone values.
Liu: Have you ever thought of yourself, moving among so much misery? Have you ever imagined what you would feel if you should oin them one day?
Yuan; I was only thinking that if I could publish an albumabout life in the mental hospitals, I would write on the title page, "Their today will perhaps be our tomorrow." But I found out later that Mark said these words before.
Liu: Has it ever occurred to you that taking their pictures might amount to an imposition?
Yuan: Yes. But this is perhaps an irrational view. Ordinarily, I would have great difficulty to get such pictures, for patientshaving one of the fils have lost the ability to protectthemselves and are in the special care of the staff of thehospitals. Mark of the United States and Depardon of France wereall given government special permit for taking pictures of mental patients. The nurses in our asylums are probably the best; they have even to light cigarettes or trim toenails for the invalids. But I had the feeling that they did these things mostly out ofthe sense of duty, while what the mental patients needs most is acertain respect. Lack of respect for people is a question we should all face.
Liu: More often than not, the figures in your photos lookstraight into our eyes. I would like to ask whether you told themwhere to look and what they should do, like the film directors?
Yuan: I do not like directing in photo taking. I admit somegood films are produced with good directing. But I can't get ridof the idea that directing contains some disrespect. Disrespect tothe photographed first of all, and to the viewers as well. It is a sort of cheating
Liu: If I were to direct, I would make my directing easilyseen in the pictures. I will not try to create a false impression
Sun: Then, do your photos, looked at from the visual angle ,have the problem of insipidity, of lacking a visual impact force?
Yuan: In asylums, we can see strange things everywhere. But I dislike grotesqueness. I have always maintained that the impact force and profundity are two different things. I prefer movingpeople with the strength embodied in the images themselves. If apicture looks rather good at first glance, but no one wants totake a second look at it, it can hardly be called a good picture. Sun: Do you mean to say that images without a proper contentmeans nothing in photography?
Yuan: Or rather: Compared with the form, the content is ofgreater importance. Some photos caught the "decisive moment" andhave a perfect form. But people's interest in them wears offgradually for their lack of content.
Sun: If that is the case, how will then a photographer giveexpression to his individuality?
Yuan: I have not pondered on this question properly. But believe in man's innate individuality, not the kind ofindividuality one has painstakingly cultivated. In fact, man'scharacter is like his nature; it's not necessarily good or bad. The point is what is the content of such character. Take myphotos for instance. I frequently let the photographed look at my camera, for I set great store by exchange through photos - - with my audience. The photographed looks at me in the face, and through my photo, looks at you in the face as well. The photo thusbecomes a means of exchange. I think this kind of treatment ismore straightforward and can better covey my thought.
Liu: So thought or content is the essential component of yourphotos?
Yuan:I think so.
Sun: Then, what is the starting point, or the final aim, ofyour thought?
Yuan: A sort of solicitude? Or concern over the fate of man,myself included? This is a difficult question to answer, isn't it?
Liu: I strive to forget the term "mental disorder" when look at your pictures, but can not snake or the shadow ortragedies no matter how hard I try.
Sun: The Eastern traditional aesthetic standards have inclinedus to turn away from tragedies. Small wonder many of our colleaqueshesitate to take uo such a subiect.
Yuan: The choice of a subject has a lot to do with the nature, experience and approach to life of a photographer. can beeasily touched by some feelinas and distress common to mankind. So it's onlv natural that I should pick up mental patients.
Sun: You have taken up needy people now, soon after you navelinisnea with the work of the album. Am I right to say that youregard these the only subjects with which you can illustrate yourunderstanding of photography?
Yuan: I have always maintained that arts, especiallyphotography, should take care of the society, and this care shouldbe embodied mostly in its critical edge. This edge is existent inall the pictures I have taken of the mental patients and the needypeople. They are the expressions of my comprehension of thesociety, rather than my understanding of photography.
Sun: I hold all along that the kind of photography we havetaken up (meaning the "documentary photographing") is not an end but a means to bring about certain social effects. You talked about arts taking care of the society. Do you think your photosare mighty enough to awaken the better nature in man?
Yuan :I wish they could. But I don't believe photography hasso much might. For the strength of photography is largelydetermined by the level of social development, and some of theaims of photography depend on the society for their fulfillment.
Sun: Does your work in the asylums affect your photographingthe needy people in any way?
Yuan: My experience in the asylums has at least deepened my understanding of photography and made me ponder on therelationship among photography, the photographer and the photographed. I will go on with my reflections. I hope I will beable to look at things from a higher plain indealing with thework in hand.